Against Marcion

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Against Marcion

Episode 8 - Go tell it on the mountain. Episode 7 - Who owns the Sabbath? Tertullian - Against Marcion - Book 4 - Chapter 12 - link here. Episode 6. Comments on Against Marcion - Book 4 - Chapter 11, link here. Covers Chapter 9, of Book 4 of Against Marcion, where we learn about fishing for men.

Original text can be found here. Tertullian - Against Marcion - Book 4 - Chapters Diving into a study of Tertullian's work "Against Marcion" - Read the book online here A summary of chapters and why this should be interesting to you. Get behind me, Satan! Episode 2 - also recorded in - This is a follow-up on on the next passage in Origen's commentary looking at the passage where Jesus calls Peter Satan.

Text can be found here.

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On the Rock. For in honour of kings, or kings' sons, ways are levelled and stones cleared away before them. But before the coming of this One he said that minds should be purified. What is probable? That David's Son.

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Or can it be that David also, in the days of his sovereignty, was dwelling in minds and not in palaces? And if David was dwelling in palaces, and also David's son is to dwell in palaces, what was John preparing for him? Or can it be that John smoothed ways and prepared palaces, though he was not even dwelling in the cultivated land? Why did he leave the cultivated land and go out to the desert?

Diogenes of Sinope | Tertullian, Against Marcion Chapter 1 [Lucian of Samosata Wiki]

Or can it be that he who sent him came into the desert and that on that account he who was sent also was preaching in the desert? But if they drove him out, did they not treat him rightly? For what did they see in him that was likely to make them believe that he was the Messenger of Him who was coming? Perhaps they were convinced by the fact that he was imprisoned, or that he was removed, or that the girl played with his skull! But perhaps thou wilt say that they did these things to John by the power of Herod. And if he is the Messenger of that Messiah to all nations, was he really not greater than Herod even there?

Or can it be that even the general of Herod was greater than the King of the. But if thou sayest that these men, on account of their subjection, were more submissive [P. Can it be that he who is coming is really persecuted [1. Or is he really killed like him? But if at his coming [ they did ] not [ recognise him, how does he ] resemble him i. For even if he were not 'in his days,' but yet were really like him in every respect, this would suffice, even by itself, to refute them by showing that he cannot be 'strange' to one whom he resembled in every respect.

And if this one point would suffice to refute them, how much more credible will it be [p. But if thou sayest that therefore not only John is like Isu, but also Elijah and Jeremiah, who preceded him, thou sayest well. But are these whom thou citest like him or not? If they are like him, lo! But lo! And if humility existed before him, what is that one new thing which he brought with him and which was not in those three i.

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John, Elijah, and Jeremiah and in their other associates who were like them? Why forsooth do they say that there was no fasting in the world , seeing that when all the scattered groups lit. But perhaps they will say, ' It is. For Daniel used to pray three times a day and by means of his prayer he interpreted dreams and brought back the People from Babylon, and angels used to come to him at the time of his prayer.

But the Marcionites, because they pray more than Daniel, as they say, will not accomplish more than he, nor even as much as he, but less than he. But since they pray more than the righteous, as they say, and yet are not answered even as much as sinners are answered , it is clear that, because they pray to one who does not exist, on that account they are not heard or answered when they xxxii pray.

But if we pray concerning great and heavenly things, [P. What is the new kind of prayer which he brought with him? And if Isu did not send the prophets and the Maker did not send Isu, then from these same sufferings of the prophets Isu [ took an example ] that [P. And if he attracts us by something that is pleasing to us, how can that which is pleasing to us be strange to our nature?

For even if they had not been in the prophets, but are greatly pleasing to our nature it would equally follow".

Or do they say that he changed our nature and the nature of the former prophets? Who changed their nature? Was it Isu? Wilt thou not then tell us that he was in the world? And if he was in the world, then the world was in him 12 ; and if the world was in him, he is the Creator's Son, as the Scriptures say, and he is not the Stranger's Son, as the followers of Marcion erroneously assert.

But if he was not in the world, 13 who previously sowed in our world the pleasing qualities of Isu? Did then the Maker really know that by means of these he i. Isu was destined to lead created beings astray, and did He give them to us beforehand, in order that we might not go astray [P. And where is that passage which xxxiii says that 'there is none that knoweth the Father save the Son'? But let us suppose that these things belong to Isu ; can it be that he actually changed the prophets, and that they were then able to fulfil these commandments?

And if he actually changed the prophets, how can he announce to us that we should accomplish them, when he has not yet changed our nature? In virtue of the fact that he incites us by 'Blessed are the humble in their spirit,' 16 will he really change our nature? And if five hundred Beatitudes do not change our nature, if he utters lit. Or is it because he cannot that he does not change it? Or because he does not wish? If he cannot, how was he able to change the nature of the former ones?

And if, though he was able, he really did not wish, how did he consent to change that of the former ones? And if he [P. But if the laws are akin to our nature, and our nature to the laws, where is that' Strangeness ' of the Stranger? That thou mayest know that these others also [ agree ] with [l. If then these persons are pleasing [to the Just God], as also they are indeed pleasing to Him, why does He torment His friends here? Either there is something compassionate [ in Him and gracious ] to these who are here tormented ; or if there is nothing [He is] very wicked, and they are wronged [by Him] on whose account they are here tormented!

And how [is manifested] the Justice of the Just One? And so also both of them are gratified by good things, for For what has happened to these two Gods that they should have one will? Is it not clear that either there is only One God, or that they are both One, for as one they both will with one will? And that thou mightest know that this is so, the Maker sanctified Moses and sent him to Egypt, and since Moses wished to take his wife with him by force, He i.

And the Stranger also acted likewise towards Simon Peter , although he did not [P. And again, when the People had been sanctified, He did not allow them to approach the holy mountain because they were turning again to married life ; but the People were standing at a distance, and Moses the holy was speaking, and God was answering with a voice. And again, the disciples also were standing in silence, and Simon only was speaking. And perhaps thou wilt say, Was there not among them John, a virgin, and were not all his companions holy?

And Joshua was a virgin, and 22 he i. Moses was brought in with Joshua only. But if on account of the holiness which He preached you [P. For He 23 would not have taken up and made to ascend to His heavens one who by his holiness wished to be the opponent of the Creator, who wished that by means of marriage the creation should be fruitful and multiply.

For by the case of Elijah, so to speak, all the creation of the Creator has been made void. But how could Elijah have been received into the heavens on account of that one thing? For the [P.

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But if that single [ virgin ] of the [l. How is he the Stranger? Since therefore we have found that the prophets are like to one another in humility, and John to all of them, and all of them to Isu, how then can the Stranger, who resembles them all, be strange to them all? Or can it be that they give the name of 'Strangeness' to that which is similar? Well, then, the prophets also, who resemble one another, are 'strange' to one another! Well, then, according to thy reasoning, because the Father of Isu is not humbled together with Isu who was humbled, the Stranger also, who was not humbled, is strange to His son who was humbled.

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And if the Stranger who was not humbled is not strange to His son who was humbled, then it is not because one was humbled and the other was not humbled that the Strangeness arises but because Strangeness consists in Strangeness to the nature of some one. But if Isu who was humbled resembles the Stranger who was not humbled, how much more will Isu who was humbled resemble the Maker who was humbled! For in what consists the fact that Isu was humbled? Is it not in this that he was manifested to men and taught them to do what is good?

If this is not also found in the case of the Maker, they i. And if not even this was lacking to Him, why do they utter blasphemy by means of the Strangeness which they introduce? Did He not enter into the abode of Abraham and eat? And if thou sayest that they were righteous, I answer Lo, on account of their iniquity they all fell in the wilderness and, except in the case of two, they did not enter into the land of promise.

We have thus compared Isu with the Maker, and it has been seen that the Maker was antecedent to Isu in humiliation. And if thou sayest that Isu was actually crucified, thou sayest that it seemed so? And if thou addest that He also went down to Sheol and ascended, thou sayest it without believing it. For thou dost not confess the [coming to life of] the body. But inasmuch as? How therefore canst thou liken Isu to that Stranger, who is strange to Him in every respect?

And why dost thou wish, on the other hand, to account Him strange to the Maker when He resembles Him in every respect? But if Marcion still persists in cavilling, let him be asked again as to whether he believes the word of the Stranger or not. If he believes it, what did He i. That John forsooth was a liar, or a true man?

Did [P. If then John is a true man, and not a reed shaken by every wind, 24 why [therefore] is he shaken and does he think about Jesus 25 that he [was] the Messiah of the Law. And if [John knew] the word of Isu to be 'No,' [lo,] then Isu really lied in that he said concerning John that he i. John did send to him. But if in truth John was shaken and sent to Isu, the word of Isu was also a lie, when he testified concerning John that he was not a reed shaken by every wind. Thus both of these assertions cannot stand. For either he was shaken, or he was not shaken. If he was shaken he was a xxxviii reed, and why did he i.

Isu say that he was not a reed? And if he was not a reed, then he was not shaken. And can it be that he wrote a letter and dispatched it to him, and sent to him saying , 'Art thou He that cometh? And were it not for the testimony of Isu, who said that he was not a reed, it would have been possible to say that because John was humble and happened to live in the days of Isu who preached humility, by reason of his humility which resembled his i.

But as for this John, who erred [ in thinking that it was necessary ] that he should send to Him, did he really know the time, or did he send to Him though he knew that it was not He? And what then compelled him to send to Him? If it was that his disciples might learn from Isu.

And if they say that the sole reason that Isu said concerning xxxix John 'Blessed is he, if he is not offended in me,' 26 was in order that he might show that he did not communicate lit. But if the sole reason of his saying it was in order to show that John was true in his teaching, then he did not send to Isu, and Isu himself made him i. And if what he said is true, namely that he sent to him, then is not John true? And if Isu had wished to send to him saying 'I am He,' would he not have been going astray after him? But he said 'Blessed is he if he is not offended in me. Is it not he who turned back from being with him?

John therefore was one who believed in Isu, and on that account Isu sent saying 'Blessed is he if he remains steadfast and is not offended in me. And was [P.

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If he was not deceived, then the bribe of the Stranger was lost. And did not the Stranger know that his bribe would not be accepted by John? And if he knew, why did he allow his bribe to be lost, that is to say, the bribe of that praise of his? But concerning Moses and Elijah who were found on the mountain in company with Isu, what do they i. But they say that they were guardians there. And what. And if there had been anything on it, the Maker would have had the Cherub and the point of the sword with which to surround the mountain.

Moses and Elijah to guard a mountain in which there was nothing? If He did not set forth [P. And if they say, 'You are asking us concerning your own affairs also,' then leave that question of ours as to what they were doing, and tell us? Was it in order to fight that he went up thither? For the Maker had myriads [l. Or were they with [P. And if thou art taking mankind, why didst thou beforehand take the Twelve and the Seventy -two from the [flock] 30 of another?

And art thou not, lo, he that said that before the foundation of the world thou knewest them? If again they returned and said to him "[As for] mankind, because thou art about to buy them, if thou didst take them beforehand, nothing hinders? And if it is required for thee, give lxi the price of it, seeing thou hast gone up ; and if it is not intended by thee to buy the mountain, get down off it; why wilt thou stir up enmity for thyself with the Maker about nothing? But the price of mankind will not be found by thee to give to the Maker, for He has given no pledge. But if Isu came to wage war, he was not a good Being, for he did not purchase And were it not that our Maker is good and there is no end to his kindness, He would surely, not have trusted the Stranger so as to give him men to accompany him, when as yet he had not paid their price to Him.

Or was there, forsooth, a bargain? And did not the Maker learn from the descent of Isu that he was also to ascend, so that as there was no one who perceived him when he came down, in like manner he would remove those whom he wished to purchase and carry them off without any one perceiving him? But perhaps the Maker [p. And that we may not explore too far into the perverse tale of Marcion, this pact that Moses, etc. Can it be lxii that it was done in order that He might shew them that what He gave was greater than what He received? Then also Moses, etc.

And perhaps Isu too shewed them that glory on the mountain in order to incite Moses, etc. Well, then, in short, they made a bargain with him, because they had loved him.

Against Marcion Against Marcion
Against Marcion Against Marcion
Against Marcion Against Marcion
Against Marcion Against Marcion
Against Marcion Against Marcion

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